Nationalism

[Chase]

On MySpace, I am a meber of a group that is an online government simulator-like thing. One of the other members, who is a nationalist and a fascist sympathizer, passed a "bill" into the Congress in that group regarding making English the official language of America. Long story short, that thread has become a platform for an argument between myself and this peron regarding nationalism. I have been arguing against it, showing evidence and facts against it, however, this person has responded by attacking libertarianism and individualism and supporting collectivism. I even used a quote by Julius Caesar to show the motive behind nationalism: "And when the drums of war have reached a fevor pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind is closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and do it gladly so. "How do I know? I know for this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." --Julius Caesar." However, the other person responded by saying that Caesar was an individualist concerned only with himself. I have failed to convince him that nationalism is a failed and horrible poltical ideology responsible for the disappearance of thousands of peoples' civil liberties and freeom. What evidence and things can I use to further promote the failure of nationalism that will be able to get through? I feel like I am out of things to use.

[Michael (L-MI)]

Well, it sounds like you have a hell of an arguement on your hands. People who believe that everyone should be enslaved through everyone are hard to convince otherwise. The best approach is fact, in by doing a little research on the subject, try and find cases where collectivism, or socialism and even communism have failed greatly. Then show how less government and more individual freedom even outside of the U.S. has been influential in getting countries off the ground.

In an Economic standpoint, show how Laissez-Faire flourishes faster and longer the one of complete control by government. That is what typically makes a collectivist society collapse after a period of time.

I hope more people can give you other ideas on this, but if your talking to someone that hates Libertarianism and individualism, then you dealing with someone that think he/she knows more about how to control someone elses life then the individual himself.

I will help in trying to find some material for you to use for factual backup

[Michael (L-MI)]

http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm

Collectivism holds that the individual has no rights, that his life and work belong to the group . . . and that the group may sacrifice him at its own whim to its own interests. The only way to implement a doctrine of that kind is by means of brute force—and statism has always been the political corollary of collectivism.

---Ayn Rand

There are also videos on this subject if you go to youtube and type in Collectivism Vs. Individualism.

[Randy Speeg]

Just off the top of my head, Nazi Germany and Stalinist Soviet Union are perfect examples. History is strewn with examples of fallen governments that tried to Nationalize everything and everyone. His assessment of Caesar is true, in a way...every Nationalized government rises not out of a desire of leaders to be national for the good of the nation, but out of a selfish desire to rule everything because they believe that they are smarter than the masses and left to their own devices the masses would fall into ruin. The success of the American Republic is THE perfect example of why that thinking is wrong. In my opinion any political leader who believes we should move toward Nationalism has only evil selfish intentions in their heart.

[Randy Speeg]

Ask him what his motives are in bringing about Nationalism? Ask him if he thinks he knows better how to run the lives of citizens than they know how to run their own lives? Ask him if he would condone a genocide of Libertarians for the sake of Collectivism? Because Libertarians will NOT give up our personal liberty without a fight.

[Michael (L-MI)]

I poasted a 5 part video series on this site, take a look and it will definately help you win your debate with the collectivist.

Just a thought on this subject to go along, do you think that if this person who thinks that everybody should be enslaved to everybody would feel the same if he himself were one of the slaves? I doubt it, I think that his lack of knowledge of the true consequences of collectivism and what it will ultimately lead to, only fogs his perception. He might be thinking that everyone should be working together for the greater good...but that greater good is to be determined by their government and that greater good IS typically the government.

I might take some work on your part but if you go back into this conversation with a clear head and good information on why HIS idea for everyone else is skewed, you have done your part to support the idea of individualism. Remember that one of the most inportant parts of a debate is not convincing the other person they are completely wrong, but proving to them that you are right. But just dont get discouraged if he doesnt see both sides, some people are incapable of logical thought.

Good luck

[Chase]

Thank you for all that guys. I will try to use all of this in my argument, although its kinda getting old and I would hate to bring it back out again seeing as it might be boring for some people in the group, but I thank you for the support. Its been an uphill battle in this and its tiring me out.

[Chase]

Thanks a bunch man. It just ticks me off when people blast individualism and support collectivism, not knowing what it truly entails.

[Chase]

I also want to add that this person views me as paranoid when I brought up the issues shown in the movie Freedom to Fascism (I tried to use it in my argument). What can be done about that?